A Dialogue with Sadhguru

"The more conclusions you have about life, the less the possibility of you ever knowing anything about life."

This week, I published an essay on the yogi, Sadhguru in the New York Times Magazine on Sunday. In the piece, I write about both my uplifting and challenging experiences with Isha yoga and the Isha community. You can read it here as a helpful introduction to this piece.

The below is a dialogue with the guru I conducted after visiting his beautiful, forested center in Tennessee and then practicing his protocol, Shambhavi Mahamudra Kriya for a year.

Being a public spiritual celebrity, like Sadhguru, is a complicated affair and these are some of the questions that lingered for me as I worked with Isha techniques for spiritual transformation and considered the philosophy that Sadhguru teaches in his many books, talks, and videos.

Ross Simonini: You say that you are not a guru in the traditional sense, but I see your pictures around the your centers, and I see pooja (devotional worship) being practiced before these images. Can you explain in what ways are you not a guru?

Sadhguru: When we say the word “Guru,” “gu” means darkness and “ru” means dispeller. One who dispels your darkness is your Guru. A guru is an instrument, a means, a doorway to the beyond. If you are locked in a room, the door is the possibility of the beyond. This is what a Guru represents and this is why there is so much emphasis on a Guru in the spiritual culture.

Being a Guru was never my choice. Teaching anything to anyone was simply out of the question because I was not willing to learn anything from anyone. But at the age of 25, I had an experience that left me forever transformed. Every cell in my body was bursting with ecstasy. Then I looked at people and saw that everyone could be like that, but they were missing out on it because they did not know how to make it happen for themselves. That is when I decided to share my experience with people and make the whole world ecstatic. And that is all I am trying to do even now.

It is not that I decided at some point to become a Guru. As I started sharing my experience, more people started to gather. As the number of people increased, we had to create mechanisms that would work for different kinds of people. We created different programs, practices, consecrated spaces and many other methods to inspire and support people’s spiritual longing. My photos that you see are also one such mechanism.

Ross Simonini: You’ve spent much of your life in mystical states. What is your relationship to these states now? How much time do you now spend in a mystical state? Or is the distinction between different states meaningless to you?

Sadhguru: Mysticism is a profound experience of that phenomena of life which is not perceivable by the five sense organs. That means you cannot see, hear, taste, smell or touch. Mysticism is not about plucking a fruit off a tree without touching it or some other conjuring tricks. It is about experiencing the phenomena of life which is already there everywhere in existence.

For me, every day is mystical. An endless number of things are simply happening all the time within me. But I can never articulate it because what is happening is not a thought nor something that can be converted into one. Sometimes, you can make a thought out of it with some effort but not always. Depending on who is around me, I may or may not talk about these mystical aspects, but the mystical within me is on all the time – my very life energies are like that.

Ross Simonini: Like many spiritual traditions, you include paintings and sculptures in your centers, and music and dance plays a primary role in your ceremonies. In what ways can art transmit spiritual dimensions?

Sadhguru: In Indian culture, every aspect of life was consciously evolved based on a deep understanding of the human system and the science of how to evolve it to its highest potential. Here, music and dance were not about expressing oneself or a form of entertainment. They were also seen as a spiritual process.

At Isha, our effort is mainly to nurture these profound arts. They are not essential to transmitting the spiritual dimension but they can be used to create a supportive ambiance.

Ross Simonini: You say that spiritual literature is not effective at spiritual transformation. Why doesn’t reading or writing lead to transcendence when so many religions are rooted in source texts?

Sadhguru: At any point in time, if we try to describe something that is not yet in your experience, even something as simple as the taste of a food item that you have never eaten, you are not going to get it. It does not matter if I use all my skills of articulation, you will still not get what a simple eatable is. So, if we talk about anything that is not yet in your experience, it will only lead to wild hallucinations or your own conclusion of what it could be.

Moreover, whatever books you take, even if they happen to be God’s own words, if it is written in some language, obviously it was written by human beings. Human minds are given to enormous distortion. If you narrate an incident that you saw with your own eyes to someone, and you hear it after it goes through twenty-five people, even you cannot recognize it. When something has come down for thousands of years, you can imagine how much could have happened to it on the way.

If you want to know yourself, do not read a book written by someone else. You need to look within. I am not trying to trash everything that has ever been written, but if you learn to go into the deeper dimensions of who you are, you will see that all scriptures will be stale. When the creator is throbbing within you every moment, you must look within.

Ross Simonini: You have long written poetry and you recently published a new book of poems. What is the role of poetry in mysticism? Why are the mystics so often poets?

Sadhguru: So much of human experience does not fit into logical explanation. If you dissected a frog in your high school or college and looked into the frog’s heart, you could write a thesis on it in a prose format. But let us say, you fell in love and you started writing about it in prose. It would sound stupid because it is not logically correct. For people who touch illogical dimensions of experience, poetry is the only succor.

If you write poetry, suddenly, the whole love affair becomes beautiful because what is illogical can find expression through language only in the poetic form. Every mystic has always fallen back upon poetry. Poetry is not a choice; it is a compulsion! There is no other way to put it in words.

Ross Simonini: Where many gurus trace their lineage, you give the impression that you reject classic yogic literature and come from no particular lineage. Did you receive your teachings spontaneously, as someone like Muktananda claims to have received his teachings?

Sadhguru: Maladihalli Swami initiated me into some simple physical Yoga when I was a child, but he is not my Guru. I do not talk about my Guru among people because most people do not know what it means. They think if someone teaches them ABC, they are also their Guru. I do not even mention my Guru unless everything is right in the situation because it does not matter what you do with your life – how successful you become, how good a life you create for yourself or how much spiritual knowledge you accumulate – when someone actually takes you beyond the limitations of everything, there are no words for that person.

My association with my Guru was just for a few moments. What cannot be learned in ten lifetimes was transmitted to me in one moment. It was not just about knowing myself. It was also about various technologies about how and what to do in every aspect with absolute clarity. Everything that I am is only because of Him.

Ross Simonini: Do you see Isha Yoga as a synthesis of many traditions, such as Tantra or Kriya yoga?

Sadhguru: In Yoga, we understand that there are four ways to reach one’s ultimate nature – Karma Yoga, using the body or through physical action, Gnana Yoga, using one’s intelligence, Bhakti Yoga, using one’s emotion, or Kriya Yoga, using one’s energies. But no one is all head, all heart, all hands or all energy; everyone is a combination of these four dimensions. If you want to grow, you need a combination of all four paths. What we offer as Isha Yoga is a synthesis of all these.

Ross Simonini: When you transmit your sadhana, you speak of giving “life energies” to the receiver of your practices. What are these life energies?

Sadhguru: Today, science is saying the whole existence is just energy. How much of it you have access to determines what you can do with it and what course your life will take. If you did not have access at all, you would not be alive. But for most people, their life energies are functioning in a minuscule way because they have not found access to the source. If you are properly plugged into the source, you can use them whichever way you want because now you have access to an uninterrupted source of power. If one has found access to the source and gained mastery over their energies, then they can throw it out so that it gives people a push in a certain direction. This is what an initiation is. An initiation is not just a set of instructions; it is a huge investment of life energy.

To use an analogy, take an induction motor. It has all the parts in it, but even if you put electricity into it, it will not work. It needs induction. Induction is a certain kick, and suddenly, the machine starts off. Similarly, whatever is there in me is there in you, but it does not work without induction.

Ross Simonini: Your practices discuss occult teachings and techniques, even through internet-based sessions. Do you feel that the occult should become more present in the lives of more people? Is there a danger to the widespread teaching of the occult, a word which inherently means “secret”?

Sadhguru: There is a lot of misunderstanding about what occult is. Occult means technology – the technology of doing things with the physical energies, just as modern science and technology are used. Today, you can pick up your cellphone in India and talk to someone in the United States. Occult is just like this – you can talk to someone in the United States without the cellphone. It is a slightly more advanced technology.

Occult is just a capability, but because certain people used it in irresponsible and negative ways, the word “occult” has come to mean something negative. But occult is also of the highest order. Depending on who uses it and for what purpose, it could be a negative or a positive force.

Unfortunately, in many parts of the world, occult is passing off as a spiritual process, which is not good. Occult is using the subtlest phenomena of the physical, but it is still physical. The spiritual process is not of the physical realm. It is about going beyond the physical.

My whole life’s work is about bringing the spiritual possibility to people, not occult. The first eighteen to twenty years of my work were mainly to separate the occult dimension from Shambhavi Mahamudra Kriya, the 21-minute practice we offer in the Inner Engineering program. Only after that did we begin teaching it to large groups of people.

Ross Simonini: You speak often about the science of Ayurveda, which specifies very specific foods, medicines, and practices for different types of people, rather than wide diagnoses for all people. But in your talks, you often give universal recommendations (neem and turmeric, eating two meals a day). Do you give these recommendations because of the nature of your widespread teachings? Or do you believe that practices of diet and spiritual practice need not be personalized?

Sadhguru: The fundamental human system is the same no matter who you are, where you live or what you do. Based on these fundamentals, certain foods and lifestyle aspects were identified as beneficial for anyone who is reasonably healthy.

For example, given the levels of physical activity today, two meals a day would be healthier than three meals for most people. Unless you have some medical issue, if you are over thirty-five years of age, you are unnecessarily burdening the system if you are eating more. You no longer need that much food because your vertical growth is completely over.

However, for someone who is not reasonably healthy, these may not work the same way or even be detrimental. So, it is best they pay attention to what is happening within the system and identify what works and does not work for their specific condition.

Ross Simonini: Do Ayurveda and yoga conflict? That is, does an emphasis on bodily health conflict with an emphasis on non-physical spirituality? Or can someone focus on their health and non-physical aspects at once?

Sadhguru: Looking at everything as segments is a Western attitude. From the Western perspective, there is Ayurveda, there is Yoga, and then there is Siddha. This is not the way we looked at life in the Indian culture. Ayurveda means the science of life. It includes Yoga and every other aspect that leads to our physical stability and health. Similarly, Yoga also includes Ayurveda.

Does focusing on your health distract you from the spiritual process? No. Only if you are not concerned about your body, when there are no pains and aches, and the body is not constantly demanding your attention, it means you are healthy. Bringing yourself to this state of health is very important if you want to pursue anything higher in your life. This is because even if just your little finger is paining badly, though the rest of you is perfectly okay, you cannot focus on anything except your little finger.

So, bringing your body to a state where it is never an issue or a hurdle in your life is important. Yoga has other dimensions to it, but on a basic level, it aligns your body, mind and energies in such a way that the dimension which is the root of all creation begins to function properly. Once it begins to function, health is a natural state. There are thousands of people who walked out of chronic ailments – not through treatment but by bringing alignment within with Inner Engineering.

Ross Simonini: You often use logic to explain spiritual ideas, yet I’ve noticed many contradictions in your teachings. For example, you ask people to have no expectations and then say that having no expectations is an impossibility. You are skeptical of knowledge and teaching, yet you clearly teach and impart deep knowledge. Do you use contradiction as a way toward spiritual understanding, the way Zen koans dismantle the rational mind? Should a devotee ignore contradictions in a teacher? Is it dangerous to turn off all rational critique of a spiritual leader?

Sadhguru: I continuously remind everyone that what I am giving is not a teaching, a philosophy or an ideology. When you say there is no consistency, you are looking for a teaching. You want a takeaway. I do not give any teaching to anyone. My effort is to knock down all the teachings and conclusions you have gathered so that at least you realize that you do not know a damn thing about yourself. You may know a little bit about the person that you are but you do not know anything about the nature of your existence except for stories you picked up from here and there. The more conclusions you have about life, the less the possibility of you ever knowing anything about life. So, all I am doing is trying to confuse the hell out of you.

If I say something that is not yet in your experience, the only choice you have is to either believe or disbelieve what I say. If you believe me, you will have a positive story to tell; if you disbelieve me, you will have a negative story to tell. But you will not move an inch closer to reality. My work is not to dispense truth. It is to make your seeking so intense that the truth cannot be denied to you. If seeking becomes intense enough, knowing is not far away because what you are seeking is not on a mountain somewhere, it is within you.